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tv   The Dylan Ratigan Show  MSNBC  September 21, 2010 4:00pm-5:00pm EDT

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more. is that the right solution? plus, is green still good? >> why do you think that bernie madoff and gordon gekko are the only two guys to go to jail? >> in the modern era, not enough people have gone to jail. >> the dr show off to wall street, but not the one you're thinking. what we learned at the premier last night. all that, plus our special election e-team panel making its second appearance joining us on the devicive vote on don't ask, don't tell and the secret, powerful role in each of the campaigns we've seen so far in the primaries. the show starts right now. today, our weeklong job wars
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continues. to allow for all sorts of abuses from outsources robots, china trade, bank gambling. they make money by destroying the other half of the country. think of it like a snake eati i itself. all this culminating on thursday when we broadcast live from one of the largest job fares to date, this one from dallas. people come from all ends of the unemployment spectrum, college grads fighting for an in. a tough task when so many company rs laying off for profit, outsources or facing a government so overwhelming and vague they don't know what to do with their own capital. you put it together and you get, folks, countless folks without
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jobs and an ablty to find a plan. there are those a part of the workforce for 20 or 30 years, who have found themselves laid auch. clo meanwhi meanwhile, in washington, the political fight wages on. none addressing the major six industries that control our government for their benefit and debtriment of our nation. instead, distracting us from having talk like the fed this afternoon, to save us, it's happy to print more money. aren't they printing the money to cover up all they're stealing? i think they are. another quick fix from the government that doesn't address our innovation or education, but instead facilitates the politician's collection of money for the major six industries so they can keep their jobs at our expense. on capitol hill, politicians have turned this into a fear campaign claiming that tax cuts for the rich will hurt small businesses.
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they don't like to talk about that. meanwhile, the tactics are working. nearly four in ten americans agree you can't mess with the bush tax cuts. even if the tax debate is a red herring on this one. at least one prominent business leader in this country says not taxing the rich is not the answer. he says it will have the opposite effect. that man is garrett bruney. founder of he wroem a commentary this week. >> i've been an investor and entrepreneur for 25 years and i've been involved in companies in the software industry, biotech and energy and so on. i literally never made any of those decisions based on marginal tax rates. i did that during the clinton
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tax plan and under bush when they got down to 35% and it never made the slightest difference so that allowing the bush tax cuts to lapse will again have no affect on my investment in innovative jobs and new industries. but what does matter is deficits. if we allow those bush tax cuts to lapse, we'll collect an additional $700 billion over the next ten years and that really matters. >> is the tax debate between taxing the rich and their income or taxing the middle class and their income, or however you want to look at income taxation inherently a false debate. in other words, if you wanted to look at the tax code as a way to create investment, to create jobs, to eliminate all sorts of
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bad behavior, wouldn't you tax consumption and behavior as opposed to income, period? forego all this rich versus poor and focus on vice taxes, the real cost of oil, luxury taxes et cetera? is that right or wrong in your opinion? >> i think there's a couple of things here. first of all, i think that progressivety in the tax code really matters. it is very complex and if i were, if i could make these decisions, one of the things i'd do is ralically simplify it. but that doesn't mean making it regressi regressive. in fact, i think that the level of inequality created by the bush tax cuts it contributed to the economic collapse of 2008. it's interesting that if you look at the level of inequality
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peaked in 1929. >> hold on a second. i just wanted to tell the control room, there's a graphic. carry on. we'll get that graphic up. >> in 1929 and in 2008 and i don't think that what happened afterwards is a coincidence. too much of the economy is owned by the upper 1%. the effect is that you have inadequate demand and the economy stalls as a whole. so, what we need to do in my humble opinion is we need to allow the bush tax cuts for the upper 2% to lapse. and we need to take those funds and invest them into areas which will allow this economy to be come pettive, globally, for the middle class. i think that's the ke challenge of this time. >> stay with me. i want to bring another guest in here who is living this in the most real sense that we can. chris martin, he's 40 years old.
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contractor in oklahoma. chris currently working on obtaining his license in ac and refrigeration repair. chris, it is a pleasure to make your acquaintance. is it safe for me to assume that the implosion of the housing market hurt your work? >> yeah, you could say that. there's certainly not the opportunity there was say a year ago. >> and did you look for work before deciding to go back to get new training, which is what you're doing now? >> oh, yes, of course. and i had to wait for the training, so certainly, i looked and didn't find much. >> what is it that you're learning to do now and why is it that you think that learning the ac and refrigeration repair has a higher probability of providing you employment? >> i'm doing it now because i have the skill sets from past experience in working in
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different trades. i haven't always been a framer, but also, as i researched this, when i did lose my job, i found this particular field not only am i interested in have the skill sets, but it's due to have a 20 some percent inkrecrease i demand this coming year. seemed like a no brainer. >> going back to your macro perspective, garrett, in the context of chris's experience, how would what you're suggesting with the tax code or would what you're suggesting be beneficial to people like chris? >> for 30 years, the republicans have argued that every dollar that goes to the government is a dollar wasted. in spite of the fact that we're surrounded of evidence of the contrary, whether it's the internet or state highways or energy investments. the first and most important
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answer is that we need to spend money giving chris and folks like him the educational resources they need to get back into the economy before the skills atrophy. that's the most important thing. but beyond that, i think we just need to get this economy growing and that has to do partially with what happened to the stimulus and with additional things to grow the economy. >> chris, are you paying for the education here? >> i qualified for a pell grant. >> if you were to look at the first thing somebody watching this program, garrett, and listening to this conversation could do relative to the own engagement with our government, what would you have people do? what is the specific sentiment regarding tax policy that you're advocating? >> i think we have one of the choices in the midterms here is
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going to be precisely around the question of do we want to extend the bush tax cuts or let them lapse. i think the party rs in very different places on this. the republicans feel strongly the delivering for the upper 2% of income generators is critical. and i think that that's a mistake. i think that you know, this is an area in which the democrats are right and what we should do is let those lapse. >> garrett, a pleasure, thank you so much. founder of chris, thank you so much. a short notice, i think, from school, midday to national tv, solving america's job problem in the afternoon. thank you for giving us a little bit of time and sharing your story with us. >> best of luck, chris. >> thank you. >> thank you, both. another reminder about our
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thursday show this week at one of our nation's largest job f e fairs. to texas we are headed. we'll be there live from the middle of it all with the folks fighting on the front lines of the job wars in america as they try to survive an economy that may be working for those who control the government, but maybe not for everybody else. coming up here on the show, talking to the former boss at disney, a man i'll call a friend. michael eisner. not object his current businesses, but the basic principle of building bridges and not motes as a way to a person in your personal relationships, your business relationships and your government think not us and them, just us. cooperation. the key to create jobs in this country, healthy business and healthy government.
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how do we get more of it and less of what we have. a solutions express with the former boss of disney right after this. ♪ [ spits ] ♪ [ thunder crashes ] ♪ [ male announcer ] movies just got more awesome. the new epic 4g lets you download and watch movies on the go at 4g speeds. learn more at deaf, hard-of-hearing and people with speech disabilities, access
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but the financial landscape is still full of uncertainty. in times like these, you need an experienced partner to look out for you. heads up! and after 300 years we have gotten pretty good at that.
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there is no us and them, if you will. there is simply us and us and in order to create jobs, grow businesses in general, we need to build bridges, not motes when it comes to this economy and joining us now talk about it is the former boss of disney, michael eisner. why do partnerships success? >> because one-on-one sometimes adds up to more than two. you get joint skills. you get joint checks and balances. your path is more certain because if you go off the tracks, your partner may say, is this the way to go. you're dealing together with the smell test rather than lawyers and accountants telling you you can get away with it. and it's more fun. you're in the fox hole together
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when it goes bad. i looked at myself and frank wells, warren buffett and charlie monger. i looked at ron howard and brian grazer. 30 years of movies. valentino, in fashion, a partnership. some bridge players, the founders of home depot. joe torre and don zimmer. i really looked at what it was that created partnerships that work and i'm pretty aware of what it is that creates partnerships that don't. >> so, in brief, what is the difference between a working partnership and one unlikely to function? >> you need people that are able to share. you need people that are able to keep their ego in tact. you can't have envy against your partner. i was talking to warren buffett
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and he was talking about the seven deadly sins. gluttony, it's okay. feel good, you feet, then feel fat. lust, problems. envy, you're sick from the moment you think about it until it's over, which it never is if you're that kind of partner. you have to be self-less when it comes to your partner. if you look at charlie monger, 50 years routing for warren. >> how would you apply all of this now, i'm going to ask you to solve the world's problems. obvious division in our government. not rich versus poor, left versus right, tea party versus gop, extremism abounds. i want to read something, just bear with me. this is from michael's book, "working together."
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he sa he says -- i would argue that you could assert a similar thing to our government. how do you take what you've learned and try to apply to fixing it? >> we're all animals in a way. and i go back to shegal's paintings. the horse representing emotions, the man representing intellect. if the horse is too small and the man is too big, the horse can't get up. you have to have intelligence and emotional stability.
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we teach our kids to share. they get to fifth grade, kill a kid. >> just take care of yourself, to hell with everybody else. what's wrong with that? i'm going to get mine and you can go to heck or hell and so can everybody else. >> there was a study, every five years for 75 years, to find better store managers, harvard dropped that after a decade and decided to try to find the good life and what was it after 70 years of these males that met the criteria for a good life. it wasn't wealth. it wasn't exercise. it wasn't food. it was a single sustained relationship. a spouse, a business relationship. the people i interviewed,
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they're happier. you're happier not in conflict, so when you take it to a larger extent and you say government or business first, i pride in myself at disney that we did what was called synergy. the people inside the company made partners with other divisions. tried to work together. take that to government. just our own. the jealousy, the envy, the getting electability, the money, it works against working together. so, you start if you're enemy is the rest of the world, i don't mean physical enemy, but economic economy, you've got to get the other first. if you don't get the other first and try to leave envy, jealousy, basic human instincts in check, you're in trouble. then you take a whole country in dealing with the rest of the world or israel and the arab world, there has to be some
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understanding of the other side's issues. you don't have to be friends, but you just have to get rid of the basic, internal animal aggressiveness to try to come to a reasonableness. now, i talked about real interpersonal relationships. >> you talked about specific working partnerships. >> but if you see don zimmer sitting next to joe torre in the dugout, would either have won a world series without the other? and they learned how to respect each other. zimmer didn't want torre's job. torre didn't think he did, so he listened to his advice. then when steinbrenner drove them both crazy, they were together against daddy. it's kind of like strong siblings against irrational parents. >> like me and my staff against the man at nbc.
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>> it's never going to be perfect. no partnership is perfect. there's ups and downs. no marriage is perfect. a marriage sustained for a long period of time, you learn how to deal with inconsistencies. >> the book, "working together" the author is michael eisner. why great partnerships succeed, may make you happier based on all sorts of research and you could have a more successful business, marriage or government. would you mind sticking around? we're doing a wall street thing, meet oliver stone. up next, the dr show is hitting the red carpet. we'll keep our movie reviewer of the day. the highest priced movie reviewer in the town. michael eisner. our reporter at the premier of "money sleeps," asking the stars
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words alone aren't enough. my job is to listen to the needs and frustrations of the shrimpers and fishermen, hotel or restaurant workers who lost their jobs to the spill. i'm iris cross. bp has taken full responsibility for the clean up in the gulf and that includes keeping you informed. our job is to listen and find ways to help. that means working with communities. restoring the jobs, tourist beaches, and businesses impacted by the spill. we've paid over $400 million in claims and set up a $20 billion independently-run claims fund to cover lost income until people impacted can get back to work. and our efforts aren't coming at tax-payer expense. i know people are wondering-- now that the well is capped, is bp gonna meet its commitments? i was born in new orleans. my family still lives here. i'm gonna be here until we make this right.
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the point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. greed is right. greed works. >> well, 20 years, trillions of dollars and bailout money later, gordon gekko's mantra, breaking it down with a new wall street movie opening this week. our intrepid reporter, betsy, to the red carpet to ask the stars what they really think then and now. ♪ >> there's no regulation.
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banks haven't changed. market's been going up. but we haven't created a new product. no new product, the money's going up. something's off. >> i resognated before the financial collapse and i think now, everyone understands what a small world after all, that everyone's connected and we've seen such blatant thievery and lies. >> 1929. america was going through hell. but what's happening now is even worse. >> why do you think that bernie madoff and gordon gekko are the only two guys to go to jail in the last 20 years? >> not enough people have gone to jail. >> they're all connected to the government and so, it's very difficult to prosecute them. >> they don't get paid right. guys who regulate aren't getting paid the same. you come out of business school, you know everything, you're not
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going to be a sheriff. you're going to go make money. when your referees don't get paid right, they don't ref right. >> before we get to making a movie out of working together, which is the concept i want to pitch to you. >> i'm game. >> do you agree with the statement, the refs don't get paid right? does it hit in the right place in terms of the dysfunction in your view? >> the only good thing to come out of this may be the movie. if it's really a rotten era, we can make a bunch of movies. >> the worse it is in real life -- >> the better the movie. the longer it can be and oliver stone will keep getting work. >> i think we could make a movie out of this. >> i like just a little bit, you can have the rest. >> i heard you were a tougher negotiator than that. >> on camera. >> okay. it's a pleasure to see you. thank you for paying us a visit. michael eisner.
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still ahead, our special election panel here to talk about the day's political headlines including the don't ask don't tell vote, not the mention the growing influence of money and secret money on our collections. have you heard of a 501 c4? probably not, but you'll want to know. we'll talk about it in a second, but first, from small town box stores to big city boutiques, walmart's new attempt to win over the elite with what we call small bars. what makes peter, peter ? well, i'm an avid catamaran sailor. i can my own homemade jam, apricot. and i really love my bank's raise your rate cd. i'm sorry, did you say you'd love a pay raise asap ? uh, actually, i said i love my bank's raise your rate cd. you spent 8 days lost at sea ? no, uh... you love watching your neighbors watch tv ?
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at ally, you'll love our raise your rate cd that offers a one-time rate increase if our current rates go up. ally. do you love your bank ? save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance?really was abe lincoln honest? mary: does this dress make my backside look big? abe: perhaps... save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance?really host: is having a snowball fight with pitching great randy johnson a bad idea? man: yeah, i'm thinking maybe this was a bad idea. aren't absorbed properly unless taken with food. he recommended citracal. it's different -- it's calcium citrate, so it can be absorbed with or without food.
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our nation's largest retailers apparently thinks the way to keep on growing is to get smaller. walmart shrinking the size, designing boutique stores to
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push into urban markets. first step, warehouses are being reduced. next, they plan to expand to big cities. think of it as a hybrid. so new yorkers may be able to pick up a 20-pack of paper towels even if it takes up half of the apartment. just ahead. counting down to the midterms. they're here. the e-team. don't ask, don't tell, lady gaga. the tea party. please, have a seat. karen finney in blue, jimmy williams and nate, we're back with a e-team talking, yes, politics and campaign catch right after this. trust me. trust me. ya i like that. trust me.
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the election panel counting you down to the midterms every tuesday from now until election day. after election day, who knows what we'll do, but we are gathering the best political minds in the business to break town the party politics, the money trail and latest statistical pulse, if you will, of the american electorate. with us, nate silver, founder of our money man, the world's first ever transparent lobbiest, if you want a law changed, send him a check, he'll make it happen.
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his name is jimmy williams. and the sparring politicos from the left, beautiful in blue, karen finney. on the right, a redhead. >> that's right. >> and a smart one at that. brian donahue, gop strategist. pleasure to see all of you. we begin with don't ask don't tell. with the news, it failed. here was lady gaga's strongest advocacy. >> if you are not committed to perform with excellence as a united states because you don't believe in full equality, go home! if you are not honorable enough to fight without prejudice, go home! >> well, you know, the interesting thing about what happened today is a little bit of kabooky theatre.
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they were voting on whether or not they would actually vote on the bill. >> this happens with every piece of legislation where there is two votes. one is do we agree or not. >> but of course, if you're on the campaign trail, that's not how you talk about it. you say my colleague voted against or for. but then it also gives you the opportunity to say you didn't vote against because if you voted against this, you didn't vote against defense aughtization and don't ask don't tell. it's crazy. >> you voted against it. you're for it. it's a committee. it's attached to a big bill. americ americans are sick of it. pass it or don't. i think harry reid failed to compromise are republicans. he's going to postpone it again. and the american people are tired. >> what are the numbers, nate? >> here, it's the rare issue
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where on a civil rights issue, the democrats are behind. about 2/3 of the public thinks gays should be allowed to serve in the military. that's why reid didn't want to vote on it. >> the times is so important because obviously, it was all about the election. this means that it's one more thing you've got as a candidate when you go home and campaign. >> we tried. >> or to say we stood against it. >> jimmy? >> this is kabooky theatre because you've got people changing their masks in the theatre. john mccain, the same bill he sat and full bustered on the united states senate state floor was successful in putting an -- it was a campaign finance
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amendment on 527s. soft money out there. he allowed it to get on to the defense authorization bill and it passed. it was signed into law by george w. bush. now, explain to me how it is members of our military, our men and women fighting in against, give a damn about campaign finance reform in 2000, but now, our gay men and women in the military, lying, their commanders are lying about it, aren't allowed to serve openly and honestly as they need to do. >> our government's dysfunctional and in need of reform. we're making our list. moving along. what does it mean to be a tea partier? part of the gop, against gop. if you are against big current, the current government establishment, that's under standable. a leader recently attempting to articulate that, doing a
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reasonable job. i want to let them define themselves. >> no one is a tea party candidate and anyone can be a tea party candidate. if they're fighting, those are the things they talk about and are committed to, then they're a tea party candidate. >> that's mark meklehr. >> you can work together. >> you mean, yes, we can. >> yes, we can. right. right. it's a movement. it's not a party. >> correct. >> it's people who want to get together who feel so impassioned about what's going on in washington. >> what do you want other than to say, you bastards? going to use guns to do it?
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what's the plan? >> they're making their voice heard in these elections. >> if these people are so fed up with the way their government is spending their money, by the way, that's legitimate, i just want to know where they were in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, because i haven't heard a damn peep in years. >> i think in '06 when they voted the republicans out. >> karen first. >> but the tea party movement isn't as much about grass roots movement as they would like us to believe. certainly, it's true there are regional elements and local elements, but let's be clear who's footing the bill. dick army. and how the tea party is backing more candidates. what happens after the election will be interesting. >> are there numbers that you have? >> people who identify as
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republicans, but might not have voted in 2006. one reason why obama racked up the big margins he did in '08. >> karen, then brian. >> thursday, the gop is going to release their newest contract with america -- >> this is a partisan side of the table. >> it will be interesting to see how the tea party responds to that. how much of what the tea partiers have been talking about will be reflected in this new contract. >> i think you're going to see a lot of it. the cast between the republican party and media, joined together rg arm in arm, i think you're going to see a majority. >> so, the republican party has been taken over? >> i think it's a part of this movement of smaller government and less spending. >> that's not all the tea party candidates have been talking
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about. they've been talking about abolishing the department of education, saying we were too tough on bp. if we're going own the tea party, we've got to own all of it. >> but don't the tea partiers have to own the hypocrisy of being owned -- they point to rick santelli in protest and councilman brown is on the floor, they're nowhere to be found. so while they're happy to roll out and go bananas on health care, when the benefit comes up for legislative debate, they're nowhere. it's crazy people like me saying, you've got to break up these banks and i'm expecting the tea party to be with me. i guess what i'm -- isn't there a lot of apparent hypocrisy, not
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just with all of our other politicians, but with the tea party. >> i think everyone's finding their voice now. they're saying, washington finally grew too big and it's invasive in our lives and everybody's standing together, starting from the town halls last august, got together last august and like you said, they were dormant in the past elections and now, they're out voicing their opinions and i think you're going to see a huge wave of new candidates coming this fall. >> it will be interesting to see if the same policies -- they'll be willing to resist when being advocated by boehner. >> we can meet right here. >> who really controls what happens in this country? the tea partiers? the democrats? the republicans? or those able to hide money in a
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legalized tax structuturstructu. where they're able to deploy money from different states. new york money goes to alaska, california money comes to delaware. whatever it may be. you may say, i don't care. no, no. take a look at some of the statistic specifically from alaska. in alaska, the gop primary poll as of july 2010, has lisa mur cow murkowski ahead of joe miller. enter is tea party express, $8.5 million in a california race, $600,000 in alaska. non-alaskan money. what happens? we all know. joe miller moves to the front of the line. jimmy williams, is it as sinister as it appear that is the tax code is allowing these
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501 -- >> c 4s are educational foundation, if you will. they're not allowed to go out and advocate on behalf. >> c3 for senate, 4 is for education. which i believe karen finney does. >> that would be my past. >> c5s, labor unions -- >> all are way to spend money. >> these are all provisions of the united states tax code. congress enacted them. congress is allowing, this is interesting. john mccain had a debate in 2000 about 527s. another blind fund out there where people can throw millions of dollars into the electoral system if they would like and it's not traceable.
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the irs knows who it is, but nobody else does. so explain to me why it is that john mccain did not go to the senate floor and demand that 501 c 3s, 4s and 527s, why didn't he go to the floor and demand or ask harry reid for a vote to expose all of these different foundations and money groups out there and say, you got to tell us who gives you money. >> there's a history of this in this country. it has been corrupted going back to the rockefellers and barrens in general. educated briefly on that and parallels of the wealthy control of our government then and now. >> what we found, what congress found at that point in time when you had a handful of billiona e billionair billionaires, was that they were able to go out and through their corporate dollars, influence the
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way elections were held and they decided that was probably not the best way to go about it. they passed a series of laws. the supreme court and buckley case struck down a good number of that. the congress has sort of treaded lightly on the issue and tried to sort of figure out a way so that these groups can go out and spend their money and do their thing. >> i want to get to nate because i'm almost out of time. thank you. how much is money worth in an election? >> if you get on the map like joe miller did in alaska, in a state with only 500,000 people. it's a lot of money in alaska. that did make a difference in that race. i suppose at least he is a challenger. an incumbent, as someone with so much access to money, it doesn't
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bother me as much. >> what should bother people, each of these tax codes meaning you can write big million dollar checks and nobody knows that you're the one who is influencing that. >> we'll bring you back. and we will work together. we will work together. >> of course. >> yes. >> doing this for years. finally other organizations have a voice. >> the unions have had a manipulatelative voice. we're saying, let's end the voices and know who's who. karen finney, brian, jimmy williams, the money man, you learned something today, didn't you? >> i did. >> nate silver. the numbers guy. 501 c.
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look it up. coming up on "hardball," bill maher weighs in. that's a sophisticated cable term. but first, the young turk following the money trail to argue why tax cuts for the rich don't do anything to stimulate the economy for the rest of us. he's up with the daily rant right after this. and find ways to help workers who lost their jobs to the spill. i'm iris cross. we'll keep restoring the jobs, tourist beaches, and businesses impacted by the spill. we've paid over $400 million in claims and set up a $20 billion independently-run claims fund. i was born in new orleans. my family still lives here. i'm gonna be here until we make this right. [ country-western music playing throughout ] the super-fast absorbencymatter how rougof always ultras, helps keep you in the saddle. in fact, no other ultra absorbs faster.
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earlier, we spoke to an exec -- some say it makes more sense than extending bush tax cuts for the rich which gets our
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resident young turk fired up. take it away. >> democrats tell you, let's give tax cuts to the rich, so it trickles down to you and you have jobs here in america and that's a way to stimulate the economy. that is wrong. you could even call it a lie. first of all, we have an experment. we did massive tax cuts in the last decade. $1.3 trillion worth to the top 2% of the country. and what happened? we lost 7.3 million jobs. i didn't work. but here are more numbers to prove the case. how did we do in the decades of the '50s through '90s? we were kicking ass. which means everything outside of your houses, right? what happened in the 2000s after
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the massive tax cuts? only 1% growth. terrible. how about growth rate for investment, equipment and software. we're investing more in businesses. in the 1950s to 1990s, kicking ass. america's on a role. do the massive tax cuts for the rich and down to 1.9%. where did the money go? that's the real question. well, the nsci emerging market index shows that went up 120%, meaning that the foreign markets are doing fantastic. our own s&p 500 in that same decade went down 6%, so we're not doing as well. now, you might say, well, those are just broad numbers as far as is market's concerned. how about united states investment abroad? between 2000 and 2008, we went
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to 3.2 trillion, meaning that was $1.9 trillion extra that went to our investments abroad. what does that mean? it means look, if we give the tax cuts to the rich, they do invest. in china. which is okay. you know what? the chinese need jobs, too, but when the republicans and conservative democrats tell yoi let's give more tax cuts to the rich so they can create jobs here in the united states, that is a lie. that is not what's happening. >> so, too, are the banks lending abroad? the t.a.r.p. money, the support provided to the financial institutions has been taken overseas and then, to make matters worse, i'm going to amplify your rant because i agree with you. that jim owens and others of the caterpillars of this world who


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